PIRJEVEC NA TERASI GOGE: JUGOSLAVIJA NI BILA TOTALITARNA DRŽAVA

| 23/08/2012

Terasa Knjigarne GOGA je z moderatorjem Rastom Božičem gostila zgodovinarja Jožeta Pirjevca, ki je spregovoril o svojih dveh zadnjih knjigah, Tito in tovariši ter Fojbe. Pred dobro napolnjenim avditorijem je Pirjevec predstavil dosežke svojih raziskav, ki velikokrat burijo duhove, tako v Sloveniji kot v Italiji.

„Znašel sem se pod izjemnim pritiskom, v obeh državah“ je priznal Pirjevec. V Italiji se je to zgodilo zaradi knjige Fojbe. „Ni dosti manjkalo, da bi nekdo zahteval, da me v Italiji aretirajo,” je povedal Pirjevec. V knjigi Pirjevec na podlagi temeljitega pregleda zgodovinskih arhivov (v Sloveniji, ZDA, Veliki Britaniji in drugod) dokazuje, da so italijanske trditve o številu žrtev v fojbah močno pretirane. „V Italiji lahko glede fojb rečeš kar koli. Najprej so trdili, da je žrtev 4000, nato 10000, kasneje 30000, pred kratkim je nek italijanski minister dejal, da je bilo žrtev milijon.“ Po podatkih Pirjevca, je bilo žrtev okrog 2300, pri čemer v najbolj razvpiti jami na Bazovici sploh niso bili pobiti Italijani, ampak nemški vojaki in en civilist.

Pirjevec se je tem lotil zaradi govora italijanskega predsednika Napolitana, ki ga je imel leta 2007, v katerem je Napolitano Slovence na nek način predstavil kot barbare. „Italijani so nas – dokler so bili naši gospodarji – obravnavali kot nekakšne dobre divjake“, je bil plastičen Pirjevec. Ko pa so izgubili oblast nad svojimi nekdanjimi provincami, so nas začeli napadati kot nevarne barbare. Trdi, da je problematika fojb v Italiji močno izrabljena, celo mitologizirana izključno zaradi političnih namenov. V devetdesetih letih so v Italiji nastajale nove stranke, npr. Severna liga, ki so potrebovale nek svoj novi mit, zato da so utrdile italijanski nacionalizem in svojo novo oblast.

Čeprav Pirjevec obsoja povojne poboje, jih vendarle skuša umestiti v zgodovinski kontekst. Čas 2. svetovne vojne je bil strašen čas in po Pirjevcu bi bilo iluzorno pričakovati, da ne bi prišlo do maščevanja. Povsod, kjer so bila odporniška gibanja, so se zgodili tudi izvensodni poboji.

Zanimivo, da so italijanski napadi na Pirjevca zelo podobni tistim, ki so jih zaradi afere „ruska kapelica“ uprizorili nekateri slovenski mediji. Tako Italijani kot, denimo, Boštjan M. Turk v desničarskem Reporterju Pirjevca ozmerjajo kot človeka, ki se je odrekel lastnemu narodu. Pirjevec je tudi razkril, da Turka toži in da pričakuje, da bo za svoje žaljive obdolžitve nekoč kaznovan.

„Moram priznati, da mi je spominskih dni počasi dovolj. Skoraj vsak dan se zbudim v enega,“ se je Pirjevec šaljivo obregnil ob aktualne dogodke. „Sicer pa menim, da Jugoslavija ni bila totalitarna država. Bila je avtoritarna država, vendar ne totalitarna. Imela je dokaj odprte meje, poskusila je imeti samoupravljanje, poskusila je voditi neko svojo politiko, ki je požela zanimanje celotnega sveta,“ je povedal v pogovoru, ki se je dotikal knjige Tito in tovariši.

O Titu je povedal, da je nedvomno človek, ki je imel mnogo slabih lastnosti, med drugim tudi oblastiželjnost in željo po razkošnem življenju. Vendar je dejstvo, da nas je med 2. svetovno vojno postavil na zemljevid narodov, ki sami odločajo o svoji usodi. Zbral je vojsko, ki je štela 800.000 ljudi, kar je vzbudilo spoštovanje zaveznikov. Churchill ga je hotel srečati, ker je, kot pove Pirjevec, bil prepričan, da mora biti človek, ki je ustvaril tako mogočno odporniško gibanje, izjemna osebnost.

Glede Jugoslavije je sicer Pirjevec poudaril, da je bila to tvorba, ki je pod eno streho združila v sebi nasprotujoče si stvarnosti. Teh notranjih protislovij ni uspela premagati niti srbska monarhija po prvi svetovni vojni kakor tudi ne komunisti po drugi svetovni vojni.

Pirjevec je odgovarjal tudi na vprašanja občinstva. Na vprašanje, ali se mu ne zdi problematično, da ni omenil, da je zaradi komunizma bilo ubitih več milijonov ljudi, je Pirjevec poudaril, da ne smemo enačiti Stalinovega in Leninovega komunizma s tistim v Jugoslaviji. “Komunizem v Jugoslaviji je imel vendarle človeški obraz. Razen takoj po vojni, ljudje tukaj niso umirali zaradi režima.“

Na vprašanje, kako gleda na povojno odvzemanje lastnine, je Pirjevec odgovoril z osebno izkušnjo in kot zgodovinar. „Tudi sam izhajam iz premožne družine – moj oče je bil trgovec – in zaradi komunizma so iz Sežane odšli v Trst. Oče je sicer med vojno pomagal osvobodilni fronti, vendar si ni delal iluzij glede tega, kaj bodo z njim kot trgovcem naredili komunisti. Vendar imam kot zgodovinar glede tega dogajanja vendarle nekoliko drugačen pogled. Komunisti so kljub vsemu hoteli ustvariti neko novo, pravičnejšo družbo. V svojem zagonu pa so naredili nekaj, kar je navsezadnje povzročilo, da njihov projekt ni uspel. Uničili so ravno tisti del prebivalstva, ki je bil najbolj zmožen, najbolj sposoben, podjetnike, trgovce in tako naprej.“

Na vprašanje o spravi je bil Pirjevec odločen. „Sprave ne bo, dokler ne bodo tisti, ki so se v 2. svetovni vojni pridružili Hitlerju in fašistom, spoznali, da so naredil ogromno zgodovinsko napako. Voditelji domobrancev so bili naivno prepričani, da bo po 2. svetovni vojni prišlo do spopada med zavezniki in boljševiki in da se bodo sami lahko postavili na stran zaveznikov. Niso se odzivali na povabila Tita, da se pridružijo partizanom niti pozivom Kralja Petra, ki je od njih zahteval enako. Sam nimam nobenega problema priznati, da je po vojni prišlo do pobojev. Vendar mora druga stran hkrati pristati na to, da ni mogoče partizanskega gibanja enačiti z zločinskostjo. S partizanstvom in osvobodilnim gibanjem se je slovenski narod v zgodovinsko dogajanje postavil kot subjekt, kot nekdo, ki odloča o svoji usodi.“ (FOTOGRAFIJI BOŠTJAN PUCELJ)

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Rubrika: ČUVARJEV IZBOR, Zgodbe

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